http://www.ehjournal.net/content/8/S1/S17
I don’t know how this relates to hookworms or whipworms, but the thought before was that no pathogens could be transmitted from the parasites. This study shows that even when washed in an anti-microbial solution, certain pathogens remained and were capable of being passed on to an infected host.
It mentions mycobacteria avium was isolated from parasites that had fed on an infected host. Considering a theory that Crohn’s is often associated with MAP, one might be a little hesitant in sharing one’s infection with other parties if you have Crohn’s. Since there is little way to get testing for this organism at this time.
How does one assure oneself that the hookworms or whipworms are pathogen free, if an anti-microbrial buffer only washes the outside of the organism? I guess this is why TSO was chosen; pathogen free pigs. I wonder how Nottingham got past this, and how often and for what infections the resevoir donor is tested for?
For those DIY’ers, something to consider. And for those buying the parasites, something to ask about.
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Interesting and terrifying at the same time. The study mentions that the worms were alive and they fed on infected material. It is still uncertain that the the eggs of the infected worms have pathogens. My nonscientific guess would be that it is easier for the pathogen to survive in the environment surrounding the egg, so as long as the eggs are properly washed, I think we are OK.
Do you know if the worms AIT, or better yet, the human reservoirs they use have been carefully screened for pathogens? I’m just weeks away from receiving worms from them. I’ll ask them myself, but figured since you’ve dealt with them long-term maybe you have some insight into this
It’s funny to think that AIT takes a holier than thou approach to Garin’s use of tapeworm (which I personally don’t agree with) when they themselves have been distributing hookworms laden with unknown bacteria and viruses.
Garin is right, the ultimate message to take away from this study is that no living thing is free from bacteria. While it’s possible to take steps to reduce bacterial loading, it is impossible to isolate hookworm larvae perfectly. Either you feel that it is worth taking the risk, or you do not. It’s up to everybody to decide individually.
A quick search of the AIT site reveald this piece of misinfomation:
“Despite significant research in this area of medicine there has never been a report that hookworm or whipworm can transmit viruses, bacteria or fungi.”
I wonder if Jasper meant to be dileberately misleading?
Garin,
What do you provide for proof that you, as resevoir donor, are free of pathogens? What do you test for?
Mike,
AIT has two blood test results in the File section of the yahoo helminthic therapy section under “Resevoir test results June 08″. He and Michelle tested free of HIV, the Hepatitises and salmonella, shigella, and campylobactor. They tested negative for parasites.
I’m sure they’ve done more blood tests since then. Ask AIT.
This has always been my main concern about starting worm therapy. There are no biosafety measures in place to prove that these parasites are free from bacteria or viruses. And we are supposed to beleive what the seller is telling us. If we have to submit blood work before getting the worms from AIT, why don’t they supply us with the report of how sterile the worms are? And can’t there be another problem with strongyloids being undetected? That is another issue. It’s all so discouraging!
I dont really have much of a choice, since I’m looking to get human whipworm–and the only provider is AIT. They’ve been helpful and seemingly honest as far as I can tell. No offense Garin, but when I saw that you sold tapeworm for weight loss–that totally turned me off of your company. Autoimmune diseases are serious, and are worth ‘experimenting’ with parasitic worms. Weight loss can be dealt with through normal measures like exercise and diet. In my opinion at least, providing worms for weight loss puts the whole idea of helminthic therapy, which I view to hold major potential as a therapy, even a paradigmatic shift in thinking about health and hygiene, in a bad light.
This issue of the worms as a vector for pathogens concerns me, but what can I do? I suppose risk is a part of life, and apparently, in the U.S., we worry way to much about biological risk, and end up with epidemics of autoimmunity.
Oh, and a side note. My grandfather was half Mayan, grew up in poverty with no parents in the streets of Guatemala, and didnt wear shoes (or own any) until he was about 12. I can only imagine the cocktail of worms and other pathogens that he acquired. He lived well until his 90′s in incredible health. I keep this in mind when I worry about catching some bad bugs. In fact I’m not surprised that having his genes, I now have IBD.
Nice Thread !
We have more DNA that is non-human in our bodies than we have human DNA..
We are the total of these parts!
Perhaps specific bacteria that live on the Hookworm make the immune modulation more effective than without !
What about Prions? Mutant proteins that are implicated in spongiform brain diseases. Try detecting them… and then try eradicating them without killing the worms. Impossible. There are more viruses, virinos etc in the oceans that we swim in regularly than there could be in a few dozen hookworm.
Can’t the strongyloides larvae be differentiated under the microscope?
Talking more about Prions and the possible risk of CJD – in 1999 the FDA imposed a ban on blood donations from anyone who has spent more than six months in Britain from 1980 to 1997 because of the possible risk of transmitting the human form of bovine spongiform encephalopathy, known as variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease (vCJD).
If small amounts of blood or blood products are passed on via worms then people from the UK or who lived there during the BSE epidemic should consider acting as reservoirs and larvae donors.
I just wanted to state..that I see hear and feel that there are a lot of scared people writing in this thread.
I noted in this study (I dont know the results) where they were looking at the difference of natural infection and antibiotic washed infection.
http://www.jcu.edu.au/vbms/idc/groups/public/documents/newsletter/jcuprd_038383.pdf
Actually Garin, I’m not against helminths for people with dysregulated metabolic conditions. Nor am I against using it for Celiac, especially given the good results coming out recently.
The issues here is that this therapy is in a delicate position, legally. I am against using BEEF TAPEWORM–which has not even been considered by any medical researcher I know of, and of course has not received IRB board support. Hookworm and whipworm have, for use with human subjects. To me this crosses a line and puts the therapy in danger. Not to mention the cultural-phobia of tapeworm infection.
Of course you must know far more about this than I do, but using tapeworm just seems inappropriate, and could potentially make the therapy appear even more like medical quackery.
I’m 100% in support of your using helminthic therapy to treat ANY condition that may have an underlying cause related to immune dysregulation. In fact I appreciate that you’re willing to provide hookworm to people so desperate to give it a try, I imagine this has come at personal risk to you.
In the end, seeing the “tapeworm weight loss diet” on the Tyra Banks show is EXACTLY what I believe will ruin this therapy for those of us who need it most.
Slightly Off Topic but interesting:
Stats for Autoimmunity Prevalence currently are likely wholly inaccurate. Simply no one is doing the stats correctly.
One problem is that most people do not even realise their diseae is an Autoimmune disease.
No one is keeping count !
My guestimate is many more people have Autoimmunity than is guestimated currently.
For example:
If I ask my neighbour she has Autoimmunity and her friends have autoimmunity..in my family Autoimmunity..people at work Autoimmunity.
http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/a/ai/stats-country.htm
Saying all this…I hope there is more discussion On Topic !
And please, spare me the straw horse argument–I never “dissected” diseases into worthy or not worthy, you did. My only comments concerned weight loss, based on my viewing of the Tyra Banks episode, which framed it as medical quackery, at least to me. I dont view “weight loss” in the same category as metabolic dysregulation–granted they can go together, but the obesity epidemic, while perhaps effected by a hygiene-related metabolic issue, has mainly to do with the American diet/lifestyle, which tapeworm is certainly not the answer for.
I’m actually sorry to hear that you were “ambushed” by the Tyra Banks show. You’r right that we need exposure, just not like that. I suppose it can be expected that her show would so something like that, I was really discouraged when I saw it.
And you say I should stop “lecturing” you? Um, take a moment to see my brief (however ‘misinformed’) comment, which takes up maybe 2 or 3 lines, and your pages and pages of information, while useful, yet also tinged with an emotional attack on me, tying me to AIDS deniers? Saying that I dont want those suffering from MS to be helped by helminths? Equating me with Atikins and the South Beach Diet? I honestly have no idea what you’re trying to say. I recognize that your life is devoted to this, which, like I said repeatedly, I honestly do appreciate. This therapy would not exist without the personal risks undertaken by people like you. For this reason, I totally understand your anger/frustration at criticism such as mine. Yet please, have some consideration for those of us who are trying our best to understand an experimental therapy. Try not to attack people, and blow their words up into something they didnt say, and make wild accusations. I’m not the first person who has raised concerns about using beef tapeworm.
My overall view on helminthic therapy is that it should be using helminths that originally belonged in the human body, as symbiotic organisms (hookworm, human whipworm, etc.). I guess my knee-jerk, negative reaction about tapeworm stems from this. The fact that whipworm/hookworm can live in the body without having to be killed before they become dangerous was also a concern. Also from my assumption that tapeworm never received IRB support since I’ve yet to see human medical research related to immune-regulation using tapeworm, but have seen it for hookworm/whipworm. Of course, I may be wrong about this. But my view doesnt really matter. I offer no worms, am not related to the medical field, and have no impact on future of helminthic therapy, so I wouldnt worry about it. Like others, I’m just someone who wants to be helped by this therapy, who is trying to learn about it, and am concerned about the public image of helminthic therapy, as its unclear if I’ll receive whipworm ever from AIT, given their predicament, and know of no other source for human whipworm.
Mutually, and I would like to apologize to you for my kneejerk and misinformed reaction. Honestly, it is a daunting, scary thing for me, but also seems to hold much promise. I imagine working with desperately sick people, hearing their stories must be draining in some ways, and its understandable your reaction to my criticism.
Again, it is the work of you and others that allows this to even exist as a possibility others, so thanks.
Mike
I do want to add that the fact that Nottingham and Australia are doing double-blind studies on hookworm infection, means that they had to get through a rigorous ethics committee, who must have determined that hookworm infection is safe. I’m sure the resevoir donors are tested for the basic nasties. Also, considering how many millions of people are infected with hookworms, and that there hasn’t been any studies about coinfection until now, means either that it is a poorly neglected area of research, or the risks are low. This study is recent, and stresses that more research is needed. Also, the bacteria themselves may be part of the immunomodulatory properties, we don’t know.
I think the fear we have in our modern society of bugs and germs also makes us fear any risk of contamination. I do think the providers should provide what’s necessary to mitigate risk, and if their patients ask for proof of blood tests to show they are free of any blood born pathogens, they should offer them. But the risk is probably low, if any, and for most of us, the risk of living with our prespective diseases or the drugs offered to us are far greater.
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